Charles the Bald and his Ordinal Number

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Carolingian Empire, Charlemagne, Charles III, Charles the Bald, Charles The Fat, Charles the Great, Charles the Simple, Holy Roman Empire, Kingdom of East Francia, Kingdom of West Francia, Ordinal Numbers

From the Emperor’s Desk: Yesterday I wrote about Charles the Bald, Emperor of the Carolingian Empire, King of Italy and King of West Francia. In the past I’ve written about the subject of the ordinal numbers of the French Kings and I would like to touch on this topic once again.

The numbering of early Frankish Kings can be confusing and even inaccurate. Thus is the case with Charles the Bald.

I have seen some lists where Charles the Bald is listed as Charles I of France. I have also seen where Charles the Bald is called Charles II.

In the early days of both the Holy Roman Empire and the kingdom of France many kings and emperors would rule at various places within the empire. With many monarchs going by the names of Louis or Charles and with them ruling an Empire that was constantly being divided it has caused confusion about what ordinal numbers they have.

What complicates the matter even further is how to reference or count Charlemagne, King of the Franks and Emperor of the Romans, the Father of Europe and the one who started it all.

The name Charlemagne, which the emperor is normally known in English, comes from the French Charles-le-magne, meaning “Charles the Great”. His given name was simply Charles (Latin Carolus, Old High German Karlus, Romance Karlo). He was named after his grandfather, Charles Martel, a choice which intentionally marked him as Martel’s true heir.

The nickname magnus (great) may have been associated with him already in his lifetime, but this is not certain. The contemporary Latin Royal Frankish Annals routinely call him Carolus magnus rex, “Charles the great king”. As a nickname, it is only certainly attested in the works of the Poeta Saxo around 900 and it only became standard in all the lands of his former empire around 1000.

Charlemagne is often listed as Charlemagne instead of Charles the Great without an ordinal. However, in the realms that eventually evolved into the Kingdom of France and the Holy Roman Empire, Charlemagne is counted as Holy Roman Emperor Charles I; but it is France where the name and number (or lack thereof) is problematic.

In my opinion Charlemagne should be counted as Charles I of France. This would mean that Charles the Bald should be Charles II of France. However, under this method the numbering of kings of France named Charles would be off by one. The last King of France named Charles was Charles X (1826 – 1830). Corrected he would be Charles XI.

What continues to complicate the matter is that those who count Charles the Bald as Charles I of France, instead of Charlemagne, use the 843 Treaty of Verdun as the starting point for the numbering of the French kings.

The problem with using the Treaty of Verdun and Charles the Bald as the starting point for numbering the Kings of France, is that the son and successor of Charles the Bald is counted as Louis II of France. The issue here is that if Louis II is numbered as such, following after Louis I the Pious, who was Emperor/King before the Treaty of Verdun, then why exclude Charlemagne as Charles I of France who was also Emperor/King prior to the Treaty of Verdun? It’s inconsistent.

Moving forward, the issue becomes how to count Charles the Fat? He was Emperor of the Carolingian Empire and the last Carolingian to rule it as a united Empire. He was also King of West Francia (884-887). I have seen lists where he is counted as Emperor Charles III and King Charles III of West Francia, and in some lists he is called Charles II of West Francia (France) and East Francia.

Charlemagne, Emperor of the Romans, King of the Franks and King of the Lombards.

Charles the Fat’s numeral “III” is roughly contemporary. Regino of Prüm, a contemporary of Charles recording his death, calls him “Emperor Charles, third of that name and dignity” (Latin Carolus imperator, tertius huius nominis et dignitatis).

The issue with calling Charles the Fat, “Charles III of France” is because the next Frankish King of West Francia, also named Charles, Charles the Simple, is also called Charles III of France.

I believe this can be reconciled by calling Charles the Fat as Charles II in West Francia and Charles III as Emperor. I guess the same solution can be applied to Charles the Bald. He could be counted as Charles I of West Francia (France) after all West Francia was a new State after the Treaty of Verdun, and Charles II as Emperor of the Carolingian Empire a proto-Holy Roman Empire.

After Charles III the Simple, King of West Francia, there would not be another King of France by that name until 1322 a full 400 years later! Even then Charles IV was known contemporarily by his sobriquet as Charles the Fair.

June 13: Birth of Charles the Bald in 823. Birth of Charles the Fat in 839. Both Carolingian Emperors

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Carolingian Emperor, Charlemagne, Charles the Bald, Charles The Fat, Charles the Great. Charles the Simple, King of the Franks, Kingdom of West Francia, Royal numbering

Charles the Bald (June 13, 823 – October 6, 877), also known as Charles II, was a 9th-century king of West Francia (843–877), king of Italy (875–877) and emperor of the Carolingian Empire (875–877).

Charles the Bald was a grandson of Charlemagne and the youngest son of Louis I the Pious, King of the Franks, King of Aquitaine and Emperor of the Carolingian Empire and his second wife Judith of Bavaria, the daughter of Count Welf of Bavaria and Saxon noblewoman Hedwig.

Emperor Charles the Bald

No surviving sources provide a record of Judith’s exact date and year of birth. Judith was probably born around 797. Most girls in the Carolingian world were married in adolescence, with twelve years as the minimum age, though her marriage to the 41-year-old King Louis occurred in 819, when she was probably around 22 years old.

After a series of civil wars during the reign of his father, Louis the Pious, Charles succeeded, by the Treaty of Verdun (843), in acquiring the western third of the empire.

Charles the Fat (June 13, 839 – January 13, 888), also known as Charles III was the emperor of the Carolingian Empire from 881 to 888. A member of the Carolingian dynasty, Charles was the youngest son of Louis the German and Hemma, and a great-grandson of Charlemagne. He was the last Carolingian emperor of legitimate birth and the last to rule over all the realms of the Franks.

Emperor Charles the Fat

Over his lifetime, Charles became ruler of the various kingdoms of Charlemagne’s former empire. Granted lordship over Alamannia in 876, following the division of East Francia, he succeeded to the Italian throne upon the abdication of his older brother Carloman of Bavaria who had been incapacitated by a stroke.

Crowned emperor in 881 by Pope John VIII, his succession to the territories of his brother Louis the Younger (Saxony and Bavaria) the following year reunited the kingdom of East Francia. Upon the death of his cousin Carloman II in 884, he inherited all of West Francia, thus reuniting the entire Carolingian Empire.

Nickname and number

The nickname “Charles the Fat” (Latin Carolus Crassus) is not contemporary. It was first used by the Annalista Saxo (the anonymous “Saxon Annalist”) in the twelfth century. There is no contemporary reference to Charles’s physical size, but the nickname has stuck and is the common name in most modern European languages (French Charles le Gros, German Karl der Dicke, Italian Carlo il Grosso).

His numeral is roughly contemporary. Regino of Prüm, a contemporary of Charles’s recording his death, calls him “Emperor Charles, third of that name and dignity” (Latin Carolus imperator, tertius huius nominis et dignitatis).

Further on Royal Numbering

All of the numbering of the French kings follow the numbering that began with the Carolingian Dynasty. There is not any real discrepancy in the numbers except with the name Charles.

In 768 Charlemagne became co-king of the Franks along with his brother Carloman. However, Charlemagne was technically not his real name. It is an Anglicized version of his given name plus his sobriquet. His name was simply Charles.

To history, and even his contemporaries, he was known as Charles the Great (Latin: Carolus Magnus or Karolus Magnus) It is the Latin form of his name and sobriquet that have been Anglicized and combined and passed down to posterity as Charlemagne.

There were a few successor to Charlemagne that also held the name Charles and similarly were known by their name along with their sobriquet. Adding to the confusion was the fact that titles and territories were in a constant state of flux. Here is a list of the Carolingian kings/emperors with their titles and sobriquet’s.

Charles the Bald, King of West Francia, 840-877, Carolingian Emperor, 875-877

Charles the Fat, King of East Francia, 882-887. King of West Francia 884-887, Carolingian Emperor, 881-887.

Charles the Simple, King of West Francia, 898-922.

I have seen some lists where Charles the Bald is listed as Charles I of France and where Charlemagne is listed as simply Charlemagne instead of Charles I of France.

Although they were both technically Kings of the Franks, which would eventually evolve into the modern Kingdom of France, they are generally counted as French monarchs which causes confusion with the numbering of the French monarchs named Charles.

If Charlemagne is counted as Charles I of France (which I think he should be) then Charles the Bald should be counted as Charles II of France.

Instead, if the Kingdom of West Francia is considered the start of the Kingdom of France then the number of Kings named and Charles is accurate. Charles the Bald would be counted as Charles I of France, Charles the Fat would be counted as Charles II of France and Charles the Simple would be counted as Charles III of France.

The problem with that is then the number of Kings named Louis would be inaccurate as Louis the Pious is counted as Louis I of France who reigned prior to the creation of the Kingdom of West Francia.

In some lists of the Kings of France both Charles the Fat and Charles the Simple are listed as Charles III of France.

The lists where Charles the Bald is listed as Charles I of France they list Charles the Fat as Charles II of France. There are some lists that omit Charles the Fat entirely. After Charles III the Simple there would not be another King of France by that name until 1322 a full 400 years! Even then Charles IV was known by his sobriquet as Charles the Fair.

In the end all of these mistakes are difficult to reconcile and I have just come to accept that the numbering for the name of Charles is simply off by one.

Coronation of Charles III, Holy Roman Emperor & King of the Franks

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Carolingian Empire, Charlemagne, Charles III, Charles The Fat, Charles the Great, Guy II of Spoleto, Holy Roman Emperor, Holy Roman Empire, King of France, King of Italy, King of the Franks, Pope John VII

On this day in history: February 12, 881. Charles III “The Fat” was Crowned Emperor by Pope John VIII.

Charles III (June 13, 839 – January 13, 888), also known as Charles the Fat, was the Carolingian Emperor from 881 to 888. King of East Francia, 882-887. King of West Francia 884-887, Holy Roman Emperor, 881-887.

The youngest son of Louis the German and Hemma, Charles was a great-grandson of Charlemagne (Charles the Great) He was the second-last emperor of the Carolingian dynasty and the last to rule, briefly, over a re-united Frankish empire.

Over his lifetime, Charles became ruler of the various kingdoms of Charlemagne’s former Empire. Granted lordship over Alamannia in 876, following the division of East Francia, he succeeded to the Italian throne upon the abdication of his older brother Carloman of Bavaria who had been incapacitated by a stroke. Crowned Emperor in 881 by Pope John VIII, his succession to the territories of his brother Louis the Younger (Saxony and Bavaria) the following year reunited the kingdom of East Francia. Upon the death of his cousin Carloman II in 884, he inherited all of West Francia, thus reuniting the entire Carolingian Empire.

Nickname and number

The nickname “Charles the Fat” (Latin Carolus Crassus) is not contemporary. It was first used by the Annalista Saxo (the anonymous “Saxon Annalist”) in the twelfth century. There is no contemporary reference to Charles’s physical size, but the nickname has stuck and is the common name in most modern European languages (French Charles le Gros, German Karl der Dicke, Italian Carlo il Grosso).

His numeral is roughly contemporary. Regino of Prüm, a contemporary of Charles’s recording his death, calls him “Emperor Charles, third of that name and dignity” (Latin Carolus imperator, tertius huius nominis et dignitatis).

On July 18, 880, Pope John VIII sent a letter to Guy II of Spoleto seeking peace, but the duke ignored him and invaded the Papal States. John responded by begging the aid of Charles in his capacity as King of Italy and crowned Charles Emperor on February 12, 881. This was accompanied by hopes of a general revival in western Europe, but Charles proved to be unequal to the task. Charles did little to help against Guy II. Papal letters as late as November were still petitioning Charles for action.

In some lists of the kings of France both Charles the Fat and Charles the Simple are listed as Charles III. I have also seen some lists where Charles the Bald is listed as Charles I of France and Charlemagne is listed as Charlemagne instead of Charles the Great without an ordinal. The lists where Charles the Bald is listed as Charles I, Charles the Fat is listed as Charles II. There are some lists that omit Charles the Fat entirely.